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GOAT
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PostSubject: morality is false   Tue Oct 07, 2008 9:09 pm

i think that it is stupid to use moralty to defnend your political view. i have asked pepul many times at WR to justify a single moral belief, they cant. morality cant be true because it is a matter of opinon, not fact. you cant do a scientific mesurement to see if its true. you say killing is wrong. why? it is genraly accepted that this is true but no one can justify this belief. morality is never justified so pepul shud stop using morality to justify there beliefs

thats why i dont say communism or socialism is better. i dont care if its better or not. what is important is that capitalism will inevitably end, because of the economic laws of capitalism. then soicalism will inevitably take its place, which will inevitably transition to communism. i do not believe communism is beter than capitalism. it is simply inevitable.

people if you support cpaitalism dont say why its beter say why capialism will inevitably last forever.
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CoolKidX
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PostSubject: Re: morality is false   Tue Oct 07, 2008 10:53 pm

Yea i always stayed out of these discusions about morality, never rlly understood it ..
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Pandemic
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PostSubject: Re: morality is false   Wed Oct 08, 2008 3:58 am

Good point...but don't anarchists use morality a lot in their views to justifiy things?
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CoolKidX
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PostSubject: Re: morality is false   Wed Oct 08, 2008 9:25 pm

Pandemic wrote:
Good point...but don't anarchists use morality a lot in their views to justifiy things?

Any examples? ^-^ help me understand it!!
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Pandemic
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PostSubject: Re: morality is false   Thu Oct 09, 2008 2:23 am

Religious wise-
Example 1: Churches say it's unmoral to have sex before marriage.
Example 2: Churches say it's unmoral to be gay.

It's mainly what our culture today’s thinks is "normal, nature, and should be followed."

Theists usually claim that Atheists have no morals because they have no God, which is completely false because Morality, as GOAT said, is inevitably wrong.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but anarchists usually try to throw morality into their arguments to say that the society will work since everyone will be moral under anarchy because their free from such "oppression" that occurs in Capitalism.
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solpacvoicis
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PostSubject: Re: morality is false   Sat Oct 11, 2008 10:53 am

any anarchist can, if someone said an anarchist can't argue with morality, that wouldn't be very anarchist, now would it?

personally, i think that there is a sort of morality....and you CAN justify that killing is wrong - you measure it upon whether or not its good for the human species as a whole =D that's where morality comes from.

its bad to steal, because then you are hogging the materials from other humans who might need it more.

its bad to kill, because then there is less chance for human survival.

its good to have lots of children, because it assures not only human survival, but in most cases, the betterment of society and an increase in production.

its good to have sex within a stable relationship, because this helps to ensure that the best quality of people would result.

no one USED this logic, per say, because until this very moment, i've never had to justify not killing someone lol

NOW to move on to what rename is saying (yes you are still rename to me):

for the most part, all those who aren't capitalists believe in something called the "blank slate". this is the idea that people are born into the world knowing nothing, and your personality is based upon the environment you grow up in, NOT that people are "naturally good" or "naturally evil" - there is no such thing as human nature, except that babies have the instinct to suck (which i hope we've all moved past), humans are really in touch with human feelings (sympathy), and that we all struggle to not only survive but excel, the last two of which come in all "social animals"

blah, i think i mucked it up MORE, but hopefully i've at least gotten rid of the idea that anarchists think that everyone becomes instantly moral under anarchism lol
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Pandemic
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PostSubject: Re: morality is false   Sat Oct 11, 2008 11:52 am

Nono. I didn't mean that 1. All anarchists are moral or 2. that anarchists think that they will become moral under anarchism, i just have noticed that some anarchists tend to use morality as a ideal while debating capitalism. Such as the statements about "people won't need to steal because everything is tradeable/free in anarchy" which is using somewhat a extension of morality.

SolPac click spoiler.
Spoiler:
 
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solpacvoicis
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PostSubject: Re: morality is false   Sun Oct 12, 2008 12:44 am

lol, no, that's more along the lines of common sense ^_^

plus semantics - if you take something free without asking, is it still stealing?

an extension of morality would be more along the lines of "well, i know killing people is wrong, so i don't believe in the death penalty", right?

anarchists, in general, like to use science to predict things - its called sociology, and it isn't exact, but it is helpful.

for example, we'll use yours: in an anarchist society, everything is free. since people are only able to steal because items are kept out of their hands, stealing would be useless as all they would have to do to get something is walk down to the nearest store and check it off the stock list. since it is useless to steal, we can generalize that the greater majority of people wouldn't, as it doesn't make sense. however, there is always going to be those strange, unpredictable cases where someone might steal - you can't predict society exactly.

but we CAN predict society within a certain degree of accuracy.

and thanks, i'm glad to be back lol
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ComradePollett
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PostSubject: Re: morality is false   Sun Oct 12, 2008 12:56 am

Morality is natural to humans, there for true
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Pandemic
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PostSubject: Re: morality is false   Sun Oct 12, 2008 1:28 am

@ SolPac
Very, very poor example on my part, sorry.
How about the one, such as

"In Capitalism you have to kill, but in Anarchy people won't need to kill because Capitalism causes people to kill, (Than give reasons)"

They use it as if killing people is wrong but it still has to be used in Capitalism, but will disappear in anarchy because everyone will become at least somewhat moral and the "needs" for killing with wither away.
(I realize you may not be like this, but im sure you've heard anarchists argue like this before.)

Acknowledging the fact that morality cannot always be faithful, how is it justifiyable that it is used in a debate when a lot it can differ between generations?


Last edited by Pandemic on Sun Oct 12, 2008 6:36 am; edited 1 time in total
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CoolKidX
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PostSubject: Re: morality is false   Sun Oct 12, 2008 2:06 am

Anarchy is dumb, there is ALWAYS 1 guy(i dobut its only 1) that is cirimenal, stealing,rape,killing etc.
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calinis
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PostSubject: Re: morality is false   Sun Oct 12, 2008 4:13 am

If people dont have morality, assuming a legal system doesnt exist, would you kill someone for the sake of it, just for fun? seeing as morality doesnt exist, there's no point in justifying it yes?
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Pandemic
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PostSubject: Re: morality is false   Sun Oct 12, 2008 6:37 am

Wait, who is this directed at Calinis, it seems your arguing on two-fronts
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Sill
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PostSubject: Re: morality is false   Sun Oct 12, 2008 6:41 am

morality is not false.
its like common sense.
you shouldnt kill. no one should think otherwise.
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solpacvoicis
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PostSubject: Re: morality is false   Sun Oct 12, 2008 11:54 am

...coolkid, that's not pertinent lol, love to argue with you about that in a different topic though ^_^

lol i THINK i know what calinis is saying, but maybe that's just because it looks like he is supporting my side in the first part, that people don't naturally exist in an immoral state

but i might be wrong

AND for you rename:

yeah, i don't like it, but some people argue with morality on both sides....

did you ever read kropotkin's "on anarchist morality" (i think that was the title)? =] its sooo good

its about what i was saying, the "natural law of morality", that all animals have morals, like deer exist without laws, but deer within the same herd won't suddenly kill another deer just to ensure it gets more grass, right? =]

same goes for all animals, except in extreme circumstances....

so, why should humans be any different...?

to answer your question about whether or not it can be used to back up a debate, it kinda has to be used if the argument that humans are naturally immoral is made, as more cappies do at the nearest chance. except sill here, apparently, cause they are awesome =D i'm assuming he's a cappie cause i don't want to go back and check what the color there means lol
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calinis
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PostSubject: Re: morality is false   Sun Oct 12, 2008 1:03 pm

i think it would be morally acceptable to kill another person.
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solpacvoicis
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PostSubject: Re: morality is false   Sun Oct 12, 2008 1:06 pm

on what grounds?
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Sill
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PostSubject: Re: morality is false   Sun Oct 12, 2008 1:11 pm

He tried to kill you, maybe?
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calinis
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PostSubject: Re: morality is false   Sun Oct 12, 2008 1:12 pm

like if i dislike that person
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PostSubject: Re: morality is false   Sun Oct 12, 2008 1:13 pm

Your not very moral, are you calinis?
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calinis
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PostSubject: Re: morality is false   Sun Oct 12, 2008 1:19 pm

no i'm very moral
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solpacvoicis
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PostSubject: Re: morality is false   Sun Oct 12, 2008 1:40 pm

lol, uhh, doesn't sound like it, based on that O.o;;
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calinis
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PostSubject: Re: morality is false   Sun Oct 12, 2008 1:46 pm

no if i dislike someone for good reason (like they want to harm me) why do they deserve the right to live?
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solpacvoicis
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PostSubject: Re: morality is false   Sun Oct 12, 2008 1:49 pm

everyone has a right to live. everyone has the same rights.
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calinis
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PostSubject: Re: morality is false   Sun Oct 12, 2008 1:53 pm

well it's actually not a right to live, its not even that good.

but i'd never compare myself with scum. there are some people who deserve to die.
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